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Post by slowroll on Feb 23, 2011 9:27:23 GMT -5
Yesterday I pre-registered for 2 local events in our area. I know that the guys that run these events prefer players to sign up ahead of time because it allows them to have most of the paperwork done in advance and anticipate how many players will be attending. Having an idea of how much money is coming in up front helps the people running the event anticipate what payouts will be(aka, how many discs do we need for 2nd place in Rec…etc), and cuts down on work to be done the day of the event. Anyone that has ever been around or worked one of these events can understand how hectic it can be for a small staff to have to take care of tasks X, Y, and Z in such a small time span. Any and all work that can be done up front, should be done since it makes the day of the event go smoother.
It makes perfect sense to me why the persons that organize events would want us players to pre-register. I think that I have established a few logical reasons why tournament organizers want as many players as possible to pre-register. With all that being said, you would think that they might even give players an incentive to sign up ahead of time. Those of you that play enough tournaments know exactly where I’m going with this.
I found that it costs an additional $3- $4 in fees per tournament to pre-register. So the only thing that is added to me lining up ahead of time to save my spot isn’t an incentive, it’s a cost. This business model is terribly flawed. I make a decent living, so a few dollars isn’t going to make or break me; that’s not the point. I just wanted to take a few moments and offer this topic up for discussion. I would think that the inverse would be true if they truly wanted us to sign up ahead of time. There should be value added, not cost.
Shouldn’t we be getting a discount or at the very least not be charged more than what we will pay if we just show up the day of the event? Perhaps you live in an area where tournaments fill up and the demand (number of players) greatly exceeds the supply (spots available) for these sorts of events, but I do not. We rarely completely fill up tournaments. If you look at the PDGA events for the state of TN in 2011, you will see most of them currently have a dozen players or less signed up ahead of time. I think that on some level tournament organizers are shooting themselves in the foot if they truly want players to sign up early. Even those of us willing to do the right thing and look ahead and plan out our schedule may be less willing to do so if we are going to be charged more than the guy that just crawls out of bed and decides he’ll head to tournament central to play today.
I understand that there are fees added by the technology of online sign-ups. That is where the additional $3- $4 I paid extra came from. I also understand that the tournament organizers are trying their best. These people are our friends and fellow players that have volunteered their time to host these events in our areas. Most of these volunteers do not get paid, and have little more than a round of applause to look forward to for their efforts. I’m not trying to pick on these men and women that are already giving freely of themselves. I am simply pointing out that something is wrong with the process.
They want us to do online sign-ups. It helps them when we do. If a player’s entry fee is $40 and you know that the online sign-up fee is $3, then that player should only be charged $40 with $37 going to the event and $3 to the online sign-up provider. I wouldn’t be opposed to players being charged extra if they didn’t pre-register. Continuing with this example; charge us $40 + $3 if we sign up online, but then charge $45 for entry on the day of the event. Move these numbers around however you wish to make the math work for your event. If you truly want players to sign up early, there should be an incentive to do so. Adding extra costs discourages the average guy that would be willing to do what TD's want him to do. The current process is counter-productive to what they are trying to accomplish. Thanks for reading.
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Post by ratskrad on Feb 23, 2011 13:06:56 GMT -5
A lot of valid points here. I completely agree that there should not be a dis-incentive to signing up early.
You mention the costs associated with technology and this is part of the reason for an added fee with online entry. Another part (in some cases) is that not all organizers have an online payment system set up, and must hire a third party to do it for them. The third party then collects the fee for their efforts and the tournament organizers see none of it.
I do want to underline the fact that, while I don't have years of experience in this area, I have never seen a tournament where online entry is the only way of pre-registering. Always there is the option of mailing in the entry, and in many cases there is also the option of registering in person at regular weekly club functions. Neither of these has a service charge aside from a 42 cent stamp.
I do like the idea of charging an extra $5 for registering the day of the tournament.
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Post by slowroll on Feb 23, 2011 13:46:49 GMT -5
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Post by chaincrusher on Feb 24, 2011 7:59:27 GMT -5
Great tropic guy's. I've seen tourny's do the extra five for day of sign ups. Sure wish before I done the CCC3 flyer I would have thought of that. Great incentive!
What about your friends with new dg business's starting up. Guys who have worked excessively hard to better the dg community in Middle Tennessee. We should support these folks. I very seldom use the on-line sign ups but to help a brother out who has helped me I'm beginning to do so. And I have four players I have to pay extra for.
For the CC3 we've bottom lined the fees and are giving a really nice players pack and lots of prizes. I bet a lot of ya out there have never seen a CTP goodie bag that we put together at Cane Creek. I heard players say to heck with winning my division, I want a goodie bag! We try as TD' s to give ya the best we can.
Sorry for straying a bit there. I'm not sure about the remedy but let's keep talkin' ;D
And Slow, Thanks for your pre-reg. for CCC3 It helps! I will personally see to it everyone gets their extra monies worth.
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Post by Ron Pittman on Feb 24, 2011 9:07:20 GMT -5
Craig, I think you are right. Our tournament "business model" needs to have elements of advantage for both the player and the organizer.
It's no secret that I am a big fan of pre-reg. And while on the surface it looks like the pain of pre-registration is calculated as AdvantageOrganizer - DisAdvantagePlayer, I beg to differ.
Yes, the organizer gets a better handle on attendence, etc, but the player also gains a huge advantage; The player knows that without a doubt -- that they are IN! Not a small thing.
But, there in lies the rub. That is an advantage to the player ONLY if the tournament has a history of being a quality tournament that also gets close to filling up. Not all tournaments land in that category.
I don't feel sorry for any low quality tournament, but I am perplexed about the quality tournaments that don't fill up because they are Two Course Tournaments. They often don't come close to filling up to the usual cap of 180. TD's are left guessing at possible attendance. This is probably where I state that for a player to expect a nice place at the table ( a well-prepared table) then do the honorable thing and RSVP!!
I went back and looked at the WCDGC tournament history and noticed that on a couple of them we did add the dis-incentive of $5 late sign up fee for the day-of. Yes, we caught a lot of flak for it. No, at that time it didn't seem to influence early sign ups. Not sure why it didn't. I like the idea anyway. Both as a player and a TD.
In a perfect world -- this would happen. DG would be so popular, and our events in the area would be so awesome that every tournament was full and if you wanted to attend then you had to commit early to get a spot.
The above is true in many parts of the country.
But, IMHO this whole conversation is a bust as long as TD's continue to "hold a spot" without registration money. That practice is expressly forbidden in the Competition Manual, but it is hard to stroke a TD. ;D
Ron
And MB can thread drift anytime he wants. CCC looks awesome.
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Post by slowroll on Feb 24, 2011 11:41:46 GMT -5
I like the idea of selling it as a discount if you pre-register. Several of the guys that replied on… www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30106 …pointed out that the extra cash from the guys that sign up the day of the event could be used to offset the online signup fees. In our example this means that: it's still only $40 total to pre register for tourney X with $3 of that money going to the online sign up provider. But it will cost a player in that same division $45 to play, with the "extra pool of $5 income" being used to offset the loss from the players that really only paid $37 towards entering the tournament. This could be used to give actual incentives for players to pre-register and would work until everyone finally realizes that signing up early is where it's at. Isn't that the problem we really want to have? Having too many people pre-registering for tournaments for this business model to work seems like a great problem to have.
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Post by Ron Pittman on Feb 24, 2011 13:31:03 GMT -5
So, for example: * $45 to register for Advanced Division *** $10 discount to current PDGA members. *** $5 discount to pre-register (online, in person, snail mail)
Back to $30 for a current member and the player also pays one of the following: * $3 fee to register online. * Envelope, stamp, check cost, banking fee to use snail mail. * Gas money to register in person. * Insert tacky comment about Ron being a broken record concerning the advantages of online pre-reg. Also insert shameless plug for Raising Chains and Cloud Nine for providing a local outlet to do so.
And the day-of people pay $35 or $45 depending on current membership. The extra bucks go into each division as added cash.
Is that what you are describing? ----------------------------------------------- As folks may or may not know. PDGA now requires the TD to advertise the non-current fee of $10 as a discount to members --- instead of an extra charge to non-members. At the end of the day, the math is the same. I understand that the advertising change is to help our image with non-members, so they don't feel penalized.
IMO, they are not fooled. It still costs them $10 extra. _____________________________
So, if you are going to charge extra for day-of registration --- is there any real difference between a charge for doing so versus a discount for not? And does one method encourage more pre-reg than the other? Dunno.
Ron
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Post by slowroll on Feb 24, 2011 14:09:28 GMT -5
I think that is definitely one solution Ron. I was hoping we all could discuss it together openly to find solutions, thus the thread. As long as the end result is a reward (incentive) for pre-registering rather than a punishment (added fee), I'm onboard. You have talked in the past at great length ;D about the importance of players pre-registering. I just wanted us to think about how we could get more players to signup early rather than penalizing them with an added fee. I know you'e a fine salesman Ron, some may even say that you have a "Magic Mouth". As one of our very own TDs, I'm sure you could find a way to make it sound appealing for our players at future PDGA events in our area. Thanks for discussing.
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Post by Ron Pittman on Feb 24, 2011 15:38:29 GMT -5
Hah. The product sells itself. Too funny.
It seems that encouraging ams to pre-reg with a PP has real merit. I wonder if it would work better to have a pre-set number (eg. The first 50 pre-reg ams get a PP) or if it would be better to set no number (eg. all pre-reg ams get a PP)??
I have yet to discover what it would take to build the number of open players to sign up early. Unlike an am who mostly just wants to play, the typical open player feels a pressure to place -- to offset the higher cost of entry fees. Understandable. So, every time they have a free weekend and some ready cash --- they owe it to themselves to double check the 100 mile schedule/current roster/ etc for the best place to go. It seems better for them to remain un-committed so they can be flexible enough to shop around.
Not that I know first hand. Just guessing. I don't see pro status in my future. Ron
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Post by RD on Feb 24, 2011 16:00:40 GMT -5
I think most folks will do what is asked as far as what a TD requires them to do about the way he/she wants his/her tourny to run. If they want to play, they have to pay
In other words, a TD could REQUIRE pre-reg ONLY to play in the event. Yes, that may detour some folks that like to wait out the weather, pull together cash, or overall not like the rule
but... its his/her tourny, thats why he/she is called the director. As was mentioned in other topics, if the event is good enough, as many are, people will eventually WANT to pre-reg to ensure a spot
as far as the 3 to 5 dollar fees, its kinda out of the control....its the wonderful CC companys and Paypal that have those things in place.
as has been said, give the 5 dollar discount for pre-regs if you like, but its really just one of the downfalls of our plastic currency. i say, sure it stinks, but when all is said and done, we KNOW the clubs do not charge this cause they want to. And a few extra bucks don't hurt that bad.....its gas prices that are killing us
Unlike larger retail companys that just "eat" those fees, small disc golf clubs can't afford it, they could, but then we go back to someone complaining about smaller player packs/payouts...another topic for another day....I'm rambling and my poor little fingers hurt
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Post by Ron Pittman on Feb 24, 2011 16:28:54 GMT -5
In other words, a TD could REQUIRE pre-reg ONLY to play in the event. Oh, RD. You say the sweetest things.
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Post by ratskrad on Feb 24, 2011 16:44:34 GMT -5
Having too many people pre-registering for tournaments for this business model to work seems like a great problem to have. then we go back to someone complaining about smaller player packs/payouts... This is what I keep coming back to in my thoughts. I can certainly see Craig's point about honey (early sign-up incentive) vs vinegar (late sign-up penalty), but if we make the incentive one that is enticing enough to work, we end up with quite a bit less $$ in the prize pool . . . to offset this, advertised prices could be upped a few $ across the board and then discounted for pre-regs. The end result then would be the same as leaving advertised prices alone and charging a penalty for late-comers, but it would be wrapped in a prettier package.
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Post by slowroll on Feb 24, 2011 20:35:07 GMT -5
In other words, a TD could REQUIRE pre-reg ONLY to play in the event. This isn't realistic. Less than half of the players that play in sanctioned events in TN last year pre-registered for anything. TDs are never going to turn away over half of their participants because they didn't go through the formality of pre-registering. Cameron, people always find something to complain about. But I think we can all agree that if we truly want players to sign up in advance then it's unfair to ask those same players to pay more than those that didn't do "what we asked them to do". That's messed up. I don't know any other way to make it clearer than to say, that's some really bad parenting on our part Lets ask it another way. I'll be the fictional player we keep mentioning. How bad do you want me to pre-register? Does it even matter if I do? I only recall the Music City Open filling up last year, so the arguement that it makes sure I get in holds very little sway over my decision. I can and have many times before just shown up on the day of a tournament and played. I'm not willing to pay more to do it online, so what are you going to do to change my mind? Get creative. I've just thrown out what I could think of so far. What do you think? Do you like it the way it is? Are you afraid of ticking players off? Will the club lose money?
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Post by Ron Pittman on Feb 24, 2011 23:36:06 GMT -5
Two thoughts.
First. Let me see if I understand. It seems that we are back to the $3. Or whatever the online service fee happens to be.
And because of that online fee it cost more to play in a tournament if you pre-reg vs. not. Easy math.
In the small sphere of disc golfers, yes, that seems most unfair. But, in the bigger worlds of sports/online shopping/ event registration it is part of doing business. I guess I just take it for what it is and move on.
But, on the other hand, if a player wants to register for an event before the day-of (yep, called pre-registration the world wide) then he/she must choose how to do that. 1. remember to carry cash to a local event and get to the upcoming TD or 2. Send a check by snail mail. or 3. Pay extra for the convenience of online registration.
At some level Online pre-reg is a value added service option for the player. Dang, I'm starting to sound like Chuck K. ;D
Hmm.... had another thought. More of a question. Would players tend to pre-reg more often if the cost of the online service fee was wrapped into the total? Sorta' like this. Open $60 Online price $57 Adve $50 Online price $47
And we could have fun conversation about how to fund the missing $3 per pre-regger.
Ron
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Post by RD on Feb 25, 2011 9:42:50 GMT -5
In other words, a TD could REQUIRE pre-reg ONLY to play in the event. This isn't realistic. Less than half of the players that play in sanctioned events in TN last year pre-registered for anything. TDs are never going to turn away over half of their participants because they didn't go through the formality of pre-registering. Yes, but people dont pre-reg when its NOT manditory, if it were, either you do, or you don't play. Yes, it sounds harsh, but for the most part, were not here to make money, to me its not about the buisness model, because a club shouldn't be "pocketing" the money, any gain in our sport should be put back in to the courses, or club inventory, or betterment of supplies, what ever. Its not like TD's are paying car payments after events, some might, but thats another story. the point is, there has to be SOME kind of change, and mando pre-reg is my idea.....and i'm sticking to it! ;D anyway Craig, I understand where your coming from. But if someone don't like paying the extra 3 bucks, snail mail it
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