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Post by RD on Jan 31, 2012 13:31:14 GMT -5
Thought I would start this thread to allow folks to chat about rules, questions about the rule book and maybe get some knowledge between the group.....Keith, you may have started this earlier...but heres another thread.
So heres a scenario: (this happened Saturday)
Your putting to hole out on hole 13 at Crockett (the elevated basket) upon release the wind blows the disc right back to you and you catch it.
Whats the penalty?
Read section 803.07 Interference and see what you think.
Would it be 1 stroke, or 2?
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Post by keith on Jan 31, 2012 21:33:17 GMT -5
So heres a scenario: (this happened Saturday) Your putting to hole out on hole 13 at Crockett (the elevated basket) upon release the wind blows the disc right back to you and you catch it. Whats the penalty? Read section 803.07 Interference and see what you think. Would it be 1 stroke, or 2? Well... Here's the rule: 803.07 C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official. So if you actually catch the disc, that IS a conscious effort to alter the course of the thrown disc.... Make that 2 penalty Strokes! Keith |
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Post by Ron Pittman on Jan 31, 2012 22:32:34 GMT -5
Well, so you won't be talking to yourself...
How did ya'll handle it Saturday? In your scenario the offending thrower/player/catcher would be throwing from where the disc came to rest at the end of its interfered flight ---- 3 strokes worse than when they started; one for the actual worthless throw, and 2 for the interference penalty.
Interference is a serious offense. Two strokes is most punitive. Oddly enough the rules make no distinction between interfering with your own disc or another player's.
This rule is one of the very few rules where INTENT comes into play. After an interference incident the fellow players and/or CO has to determine if the move was "conscience".
That said, I have never been a fan of a rule that necessitates the need to clarify intent. The opportunity for a disagreement is high.
Case in point. I can make the argument that catching a disc blown back to you by the wind is an instinctual act, not a conscience one -- and thereby no interference penalty. If I was the thrower/player/catcher --- it would be an iron-clad argument that I wasn't thinking and I just reacted.
Smarter folk might have to take the penalty. ;D
Ron
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Post by becker on Feb 1, 2012 9:08:29 GMT -5
Note to self: Throw at Ron.
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Post by RD on Feb 1, 2012 12:45:20 GMT -5
without reading a rule book, he got 1 stroke, as what his card determined. The rule book IS vauge on this for sure. But it is in black and white print, and 2 strokes for interference would have to apply, and as Ron stated thats on top of the actual putt. Sheeew, keep this one in mind folks when holing out on 13!!! on a side note about consciousness, if your eyes are open and your not laying dead out there, if a disc hits you under any circumstance, under the rules....you just earned a 2 stroke penalty. Instincts in any sport require mentally thinking about the rules of play..... always putt with the wind to your back Ron!!!!  ;D |
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Post by RD on Feb 1, 2012 12:53:18 GMT -5
Heres another one,
At the start of an event out at Crockett, a full card of first timers on the course tee off on hole 10.
Without paying attention to the course layout they all throw at 18's basket across the ridge.
Player (A) holes out, and collectivly the group notices then that it was the wrong basket.
What must player (A) do to finish hole 10 correctly?
And.....what would happen if the entire card holed out on 18's basket and proceeded to tee off on 11?
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Post by keith on Feb 1, 2012 13:13:03 GMT -5
on a side note about consciousness, if your eyes are open and your not laying dead out there, if a disc hits you under any circumstance, under the rules....you just earned a 2 stroke penalty. This is NOT true RD. I think the rule is fairly clear that you have to consciously (in other words... show intent) alter a thrown or at rest disc. If you get hit in the back of your head, or you attempted to get out of the way, you did NOT consciously alter that disc. You cannot be penalized in this situation. |
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Post by RD on Feb 1, 2012 13:17:36 GMT -5
on a side note about consciousness, if your eyes are open and your not laying dead out there, if a disc hits you under any circumstance, under the rules....you just earned a 2 stroke penalty. This is NOT true RD. I think the rule is fairly clear that you have to consciously (in other words... show intent) alter a thrown or at rest disc. If you get hit in the back of your head, or you attempted to get out of the way, you did NOT consciously alter that disc. You cannot be penalized in this situation. Thats a very good point Keith, I retract my statement about consciousness. Darn rule book! It will be nice having you extra officials around on tourney day!! So in the case of the blown disc, something that happens so quickly..........its very grey  |
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Post by keith on Feb 1, 2012 13:32:49 GMT -5
Heres another one, At the start of an event out at Crockett, a full card of first timers on the course tee off on hole 10. Without paying attention to the course layout they all throw at 18's basket across the ridge. Player (A) holes out, and collectivly the group notices then that it was the wrong basket. What must player (A) do to finish hole 10 correctly? And.....what would happen if the entire card holed out on 18's basket and proceeded to tee off on 11? Rule 801.04 (3) If a player holes out on the wrong target for a given hole, he or she will continue play from a lie directly beneath that target, without penalty. If the player holes out at the wrong target, and believes the hole is completed, and proceeds to play the next hole, a two- throw penalty will be added to that player’s score for misplaying the course. I think this is pretty clear. And by the way, 801.04 A states: A. It is the responsibility of the player to play the course correctly.... If the entire group did the same thing, they all would receive a 2 stroke penalty. Again, according to the rules. Blessings, Keith |
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Post by RD on Feb 1, 2012 14:02:01 GMT -5
To be clear about the first part of the scenario, if you hole out on the wrong target, but it is caught before you proceed to the following hole. you mark your lie directly below the wrong target and finish to the proper basket, without penalty. This is fun to chat about, I hope some of us learn some things leading up to the event... if we are confusing everyone, quit reading! haha  |
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Post by becker on Feb 1, 2012 14:47:41 GMT -5
Note to self: when teeing off from 12, shoot for a birdie on 16's basket. Take the two strokes for a 4, and move on to 13.
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Post by RD on Feb 1, 2012 15:01:11 GMT -5
Note to self: when teeing off from 12, shoot for a birdie on 16's basket. Take the two strokes for a 4, and move on to 13. Section 3.3 (5) of the Competition Manual  Though, it would be funny if after you hole out on 16 someone says hey, wrong basket....and you have to then continue to 12's pin |
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Post by becker on Feb 1, 2012 15:27:17 GMT -5
Note to self: Don't play with RD.
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Post by RD on Feb 1, 2012 16:04:04 GMT -5
Note to self: Don't play with RD. your bag has more notes than discs!! ;D |
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Post by Ron Pittman on Feb 1, 2012 22:41:36 GMT -5
RD,
Your comment about rules during a tournament -- and having more CO's around is noted.
I was at an event about 3 years ago and the rookie TD was refereeing a shouting match about a perceived violation and was leaning towards a wrong call. (I was listening nearby)
I quietly walked over to him (he didn't know me from Adam) and said, "You know, usually in situations like this it is most acceptable to tell the players to hush it up, step away from Tournament Central, and give you a few minutes to make a ruling. Then grab 3 or 4 trusted veterans and the rule book and make your call."
He did what I said. Called over some local former TD's and they calmly found the answer in the rule book. Did and done.
TD's that go Lone Wolf get the air let out of their tires. ;D
Ron
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;D
