Handicapping the Holes on the Scorecard

[Clark]

I checked out the scorecard and I like it but I think it would be cool to have the holes ranked like on a golf scorecard

Now I know it would be different depending on tee box and basket placement, but if we all keep in mind the par recommendations on the signs (I play them all par 3), we can all vote on what order we think the ranking should be.

So even though #12 long placement is ridiculous, if you think of it like a par 5, its just about as difficult as the par 3 closest placement.

Since I don't go by the signs, I'm going to take my scorecard out with me for my next round, and me and my buddies are going to each rate them. Then I'll post our opinions. We'll be playing from the whites so there might be a slight difference in difficulty rating compared to red

I welcome everyone else to do the same. It'll be fun to see what everyone thinks. Remember 1 is hardest and 18 is easiest to shoot under par

[Ron Pittman]

Clark,
Sounds interesting. As far as a hole-by-hole BallGolfTypeHandicappingSystem -- well, I will be the student. Don't know squat about it. Looking forward to how it fleshes out.

So far we have some great number analysis for each hole by division (pdga skill rating) for our last 3 tournaments. As a matter of fact, some of the numbers have guided some or the changes that you may have noticed on the course. (white tee 10 and 16 are good examples)

A bit about "par". First, that is NOT the same as SCORING. Yes, most DGers play everything "as a 3". That has more to do with ease of scoring -- both in your head as you play and in adding score cards at the end of the round. Most of us do this plusorminus thingy with the score card based on the standard of "3" and then apply the end number to the same standard of "54". The total score is all that matters---- how you got that number is irrevalant. Adding works too!

"Par" in its simplest form should indicate an expected score for a particular skill level. But, here is where DG differs from BG. We don't have par 72 courses. Back to the "play them as 3's" issue ----- we have par 54 courses.

A pro BGer will shoot slightly less than par, But on most courses a pro DGer will shoot waaaay under par. This is where it gets fun. If the total course shoots a 48 for example, then duh? - which holes get labeled a PAR 2! Not recommended by many folks.

Using tournament data and the pdga rating system -- each course setup will recieve a number called the SSA. Statisical Scoring Average. It is the total round score --- for that day -- for those conditions -- for that target setup-- of a 1000 rated round. Good info.

Crockett SSA's range from 51.5/52.5 at last year's CCC to 53/54 on this years CCC. Both with 9 and 12 set long. This year had some nasty wind.

We set Crocket par on the tee signs based on a similar concept. Using a design tool called the Score Predictor (quite accurate, I might add) we set white tee par based on the best whole number for a 1000 rated player. If memory serves--- I think hole 6 is a 2.6 (rounded to 3) and hole 17 is a 3.6 (also rounded to 3). Quite a range, butg DG is not ready for a posted par system of decimals. For now, we have whole numbers.

If the score predictor was 3.7 or more --- wallah! --- a par 4. Such is the case for 9 and 12 long. Shooting a 3 on those holes is birdie golf, plain and simple

We set red tee par based on an 850 rated player. Which is roughly the skill level those tees are designed for. If I remember correctly --12 long shows up as a 5. And for an 850 player that is a reasonable expectation. For a red tee player to shoot good on that hole and get a 5, but see a posted par of ---- Well, we didn't do that.

DG par is a fun discussion, but the reality is that designers are purposely installing TruePar4's And5's all over the country. Crockett will have 4 more par 4 placements installed in the next 2 years. (did someone say workday?)

There is also a built in conflict with par and good hole design. The best holes are NOT boring 3's, but instead a hole that will produce a spread of scores, some 2's, some 3's, and some 4's, etc. In other words, a hole rated at a 3.6 (for a particular skill level) is much more interesting than one rated 3.1.

Think of holes that if you throw great --- you get a 3. And if you throw poorly --- you still get a 3!! Seldom room for a bird or bogey. We try to avoid designing those kind of holes if we possibly can. But, with skill ratings ranging from the 800's to 1000 --- And only 2 sets of tees --- it is somtimes the case. About the only way to avoid a Boring3 hole design for EVERY skill level is to have Gold, Blue, White, and Red tee placements. Very, very few plots of land will allow such. And very, very few cities will finance such. Rare, but sweet.

Number wise, not much we can do with individual holes with expected scores of 2.3 or 2.4 -- they are still a par 3. Nobody I know has posted a par of less than 3 on any course I have seen. (about 100 now)

Yep, I had some time on my hands. Sitting on the deck in a cabin in Colorado waiting for everyone to wake up. More CO golf for me and Ryan tomorrow. Once again --- sweet!

Ron

[becker]

Not to discredit anything Ron said in his novella, but I liked the challenge of thinking out my personal handicap sheet for Crockett.

First, a few disclaimers:
- I throw RHBH, and I can drive a disc 400 on a very good throw.
- I play white tees. My best is a 50, and I average about 57. Red tees would be veeeerrrry different, about a 5-stroke swing. (#2, #5, #9, #13, #14 come to mind)
- I’m considering where all the baskets were as of 5/31. #4 is over the hill, #9 is long (next to the OB), #11 is on top of the hill, #12 is in the cave, #14 is long, #17 is long, and #18 is atop the hill (not in the kidney bean).
- For doing this, I’m treating everything as par 3. Even #9. It may be irrelevant to Ron, but I graduated from art college. Math? Whatever.

My order from easiest to hardest, with a brief explanation.

1 – Thanks for the confidence boosting start. Sure, the trees near the tee are a distraction, but I can attack the basket and get a clear, under 40 foot putt from any direction.
16 – I consider this the best ace run on the course. I go for the gap instead of over the top.
3 – A little S-drive should put you within 30 feet. The trees have actually caught/saved more of my drives than re-aligned my putts.
8 – Be smooth. Run it smooth and enjoy a birdie.
13 – The OB road makes a difference, but it’s still possible to reach the bricks. Note: if I’m over 60 feet to the basket, I aim bricks and take the easy 3.
15 – Reachable, the tunnel to the basket plays into the tail as my drive fades.
10 – Hang it out, let it do the work. Significantly different from the angle of the new white tee, but still doable.
6 – My only ace at Crockett. Again, a fluid drive is essential. Don’t kill yourself going for the ace and you can walk away with a deuce.
12 – After the drive, so long as you have a line at the basket, go for it – there’s enough junk behind to knock it down. (So what if your posture for the par putt is awkward?)
11 – Surprisingly, I have better drives when it’s in the “trench” as compared to when it’s on the hill. There’s also an easier go-for-it putt without the dropoff on either side.
18 – To succeed, run right along the tree line and pray to stay away from the branches.
7 – A complete crapshoot. I’ve had plenty of birdies and more than my fair share of bogeys. Play safe/smart and par shouldn’t be difficult.
14 – Crank it. Beware the crap backdrop behind the basket on the putt/upshot.
4 – More often than not, it’s a blind putt over the bluff. Sure, I know where the basket is, but it’s hard to focus without something solid.
5 – Possibly the biggest difference between red and white tees. The hanging Mutombo branch. The nasty mess if you turn too early. (If only I had a decent forehand.)
2 – Debate: distance or safe from the trees? The higher up the right you go, the farther the basket goes.
17 – The only basket where I regularly break out a mid-range for a second shot. Guarded. Par is accessible, but you have to be solid.
9 – Two drives. Period. OB to the right and long – unkind. Good thing it’s marked as a par 4 for the course.

A quick list, if you want something easier to print.

1 – 16 – 3 – 8 – 13 – 15 – 10 – 6 – 12 – 11 – 18 – 7 – 11 – 4 – 5 – 2 – 17 – 9

After rereading Clark’s post, I think I have to transpose the order. Ah well. At least I’ll feel like I finally contributed something useful to this site, even if it is meaningless.

-- Becker

[ambroze]

I would have to say in my opinion that there are truly 2 par 4’s on the course.
#9 played from the Whites and #12 when setup in the long.

Red tees (Baskets in LONG position):
Everything else out there from the red tees is almost reachable with 1 drive. If played the right way you “should” be able to birdie 1,2,3,5,6,8,10,11,13,16. Although I never have birdied them all in the same game, but have birdied them all in the long positions except for #4 and #9.

White tees (Baskets in LONG position):
This changes the game up a lot and is what makes playing this course so fun. Here’s a list of what I think are doable birdies: 1,3,6,8,10. Notice how the list from the red to the white is cut in half.

I believe that anything that is over 600 feet with a certain level of difficulty is to be played as a par 4. That’s why I believe that only #12 setup in the long positions from either the red or white tees should be par 4.

I can only think of 2 other possible par 4 holes in the Nashville area. Some might say that #3 at Two Rivers from the long tee pad might be because it’s well over 600ft. I would disagree because of its level of difficulty plays straight and downhill keeping it at a par 3 for me. The other is #16 at Triple Creek in Gallatin. This one is over 600 feet with a mando that starts out one direction and plays back in the other. That one would be a true par 4 based on the mando and the lengthiness of the hole.

Remember this is all based on my person opinion.

[RD]

This is such a cool topic, I have to throw my 2 cents in there too.
Now i have played reds waaaaay more than whites, and since whites have been covered some, i'll talk about reds.

Now i thought a while on this, and tommorow, i may have a different opinion, but anyway this is what i came up with.

I also tried to factor all possible pin placements, and include more begginer skill levels into the factoring, not just what i throw there.

these are holes 1-18, starting easiest to hardest.

3) considerably open, flat and level, not AS much wind factors here.
2) just have to keep it from going left
1) I debated on this one as being 3rd easiest, but only because of the wind that can be known to rip across this fairway.
5) this one can be tough on a begginers, but is easily learned, and you can make up for a shank to save par
10) like 2, you just need to stay away from going early left. this was my favorite hole for a long time.
11) like becker, i too have better drives when its in the gap, although to me it requires almost the same shot for either.
9) this fairway is wide enough to play it safe. the difficulty comes into play with the tower placement, that hill can roll putts from time to time, needs finese.
13) watch out for OB, park the cross ties, and learn to slam dunk your putts( for us shorter folks)
16) another course favorite, as summer continues, so will the growth, and the window will close, I think its great that the seasons change the challenges
14) aside from the strong winds usually blowing here, its a realitivly easy hole, just have to watch stong upshots. there are some serious thorns to the left of the pin!!
15) the difficulty here is getting INTO the green, you can be left with nothing from several areas outside the circle of trees. a turnover will get you into trouble on the right of fairway as well.
4) MISS the LARGE bodock, and thats your first task. once around it you have this unique upshot, i mean how do you get an uphill and a downhill in around 100 feet, divided by a line of trees at its peak............u know what im talking about.
ask Ron, he'll tell you about plans to have another DEEPER placement
18) just get it out there and you can make par. but like i said, get it out there. as summer thickens, that gets harder. then dont overshoot your upshot or you'll be putting vertically.
8) good ole 8. straight as an arrow.......nothing to it...you only have to clear the 2 trees, there only 5 feet apart......oh yeah, and your disc cant fade..........at all!!
12) nevermind the long position, im staring into another one of the courses bodock contraptions. do i heizer, will a tomahawk make it, do i anheizer.......maybe budweiser........
6) i have hit chains........once.....i have hit the upside down V 34 times.....ive skipped past the hole 14 times.....but i have made a lot of birdies, and a lot more pars.
7) uphill tee pads are always hard...........that reminds me, i volunteered to build up a level pad there......whoops, i will get to that. trees, trees, and more trees. anyone out there ever aced this hole, or come close...without a skip mind you
17) last but not least. this was the hardest hole for me to learn. there is only one route for me. and i spent a lot of time off in the woods on the right.......i know, bad aim. but it has stopped more bogey less rounds than any other hole (besides 12 long)

ok, well thats enough of that.
I throw RHBH, around 300 feet. sidewinders and valks.
and my spelling sucks......hopefully you could read this.

again this is only from the RED pads, and again, i tried to include a begginer prospective of these holes.

see ya'll out there
RD

[Clark]

I'm glad some other people were digging this idea. I'm also glad to see some explanation -- I think that will help others with their final ranking decisions.

Ron -- everyone I talk to about you has nothing but great things to say and now I see why. Your explanation for determining par was awesome. I now have a totally different perspective on the course, and a way better understanding for what makes a par 4. It makes alot of sense, and I'm actually looking forward to par 4s and even 5s being a course standard (i agree; par 2s would be silly)

As for the hole handicapping, this was tougher than I thought. I think I had my top 3 hard and easy holes already picked, but the rest were tough to order.

I started thinking way too much about #4, #9, #17 and obviously #12 basket locations and I think its best to just rank them based on their current configuration, which is mostly the furthest basket locations. Besides its so subjective, opinions are whats going to make this fun.

Here's what I think from the whites (1 is hardest):

1 - #9 -- long, made longer by a headwind, w/ the threat of OB
2 - #17 -- also long, with a well guarded basket, and nothing to prevent a skip approach deep in the woods.
3 - #4 -- OB potential from the tee, tough 2nd shot
4 - #7 -- trees aplenty
5 - #12 -- lots of potential for bad
6 - #18 -- "ditto" downhill behind basket makes for tough 2 putt
7 - #5 -- just b/c you got out of the woods doesn't mean you won't be back in them
8 - #15 -- the best way in is the front right, otherwise good luck
9 - #16 -- this hole has gotten harder as its gotten greener, but its relatively easy to save a bad tee shot
10 - #14 -- pretty wide open, easy to sail you approach into the thorns
11 - #11 -- a strong headwind can really up your putt count
12 - #6 -- if your willing to accept par, its easy, but the ace run is just too tempting
13 - #3 -- if the trees knock your drive down, a par save is still possible
14 - #2 -- long but wide open (I think this is one of the par 4s)
15 - #10 -- even with the trees on the left a decent second shot gives you a chance at par.
16 - #8 -- two easy midrange putts get you a par opportunity; one ace run rip can get you in trouble
17 - #13 -- the elevated basket is a mental challenge, but its not a hard hole
18 - #1 -- a great, confidence-boosting start to a round

[Clark]

Ok, while I couldn't get my buddies to rank the holes off the top of their heads, I did keep a scorecard, and here's the order of difficulty based on average score per hole. I thought this was pretty interesting. 1 is hardest or in this case highest total shots for a threesome (from the whites). This can be an objective look.
1- 9 (b/c its a par 4)
2- 5
3- 15
4- 17
5- 7
6- 11
These 5 were all the same totals (11 shots):
7- 2 (other par 4)
8- 4
9- 8
10- 14
11- 16
Now back in order (10-8shots):
12- 18
13- 12
14- 10
15- 3
16- 6
17- 1
18- 13 (2 birdies)

I thought it was pretty cool how close our actual scores were to the posts so far. So this got me to thinking -- the best way to handicap is to actually score every round. You can either play it a few times and keep score or take the scorecard out when you play with friends -- either way, tallying actual scores is probably the most accurate method.

That being said, in ball golf, I score better on the tougher holes than I do the easiest, so go figure. I think the way it is determined in ball golf is ability to get to the green based on distance and hazards (so a narrow fairway, lots of bunkers or water forcing you to lay up will be harder). The difficulty of the green also plays a role. So in disc golf this translates to guarded baskets and trees that can (and often times will) add to your score.

I look forward to seeing others opinions and scoring results

[ambroze]

Providing the avg score per hole is a good idea since I keep up with every true 18 hole game I play. I was able to strip out my numbers and run some magic on them and here's what I come up with.

This is from a combination of playing from both red and white tees of 20 games recorded.

It looks to be no suprise that #9 and #12 are at the top of the list for the hardest holes. I'm not sure what's up with #4, it just seems to be my nemesis hole when setup in the long.

3.750 - Hole #9
3.450 - Hole #12
3.300 - Hole #4
3.100 - Hole #17
3.050 - Hole #5
3.050 - Hole #18
3.000 - Hole #7
3.000 - Hole #15
2.950 - Hole #2
2.950 - Hole #14
2.950 - Hole #11
2.900 - Hole #8
2.850 - Hole #13
2.800 - Hole #6
2.800 - Hole #16
2.750 - Hole #10
2.700 - Hole #1
2.500 - Hole #3

Scores recorded:
06/03/09 2 3 3 3 4 2 3 2 4 4 3 2 3 3 4 3 4 3 55 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
05/27/09 3 3 2 4 3 3 4 3 3 3 2 3 1 3 4 3 2 3 52 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
05/12/09 2 3 2 4 3 3 2 3 5 2 2 3 3 2 2 2 3 3 49 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
04/22/09 3 3 3 4 2 3 2 2 3 3 3 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 51 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
04/17/09 2 3 3 4 3 3 3 2 3 2 3 3 3 3 3 2 4 2 51 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
04/08/09 3 4 3 2 3 2 3 3 3 3 3 2 3 2 3 3 4 2 51 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
01/01/09 3 2 3 3 2 3 3 3 3 2 4 2 3 3 3 3 2 4 51 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
09/19/08 3 3 3 3 4 3 2 4 4 3 3 3 3 4 3 3 4 3 58 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
07/04/08 3 3 2 3 3 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 2 3 2 2 3 3 50 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
05/10/08 3 3 2 4 3 5 3 2 4 2 3 4 3 4 3 3 4 3 58 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
05/10/08 3 3 2 3 4 2 3 3 5 3 3 4 3 4 3 3 3 4 58 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
04/25/08 3 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 56 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
04/08/08 2 3 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 3 3 4 3 3 3 2 4 3 55 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
02/09/08 3 3 3 4 2 2 3 2 5 2 3 5 3 3 3 2 3 3 54 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
12/31/07 3 3 3 3 2 2 3 2 3 4 3 5 3 2 3 3 3 3 53 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
12/31/07 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 2 3 5 4 3 3 4 3 3 61 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
11/23/07 2 4 2 3 4 3 3 3 4 2 3 4 3 2 3 3 3 3 54 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
11/10/07 2 3 2 4 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 55 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
11/10/07 3 2 2 3 2 2 5 3 4 3 3 4 3 3 3 3 2 4 54 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN
11/03/07 2 2 2 3 3 4 3 4 3 3 3 3 2 3 3 3 2 3 51 |Crockett Park, Brentwood, TN

[Ron Pittman]

OK, I get it now. Rank the holes by difficultly. I like it.

White tees (reds would be rather different-- I'll get them later)

1. 9-a, easier to get in more trouble than 12
2. 12-a, par is do-able, but 5 is most available
3. 17-a, the toughest par 3 on the course. Hands down.
4. 4-a, takes a clean drive, finesse upshot.
5. 5-a, same as 4, just a bit easier upshot. Still intimidating. Panic and get a 4.
6. 18-a, no room for error on the upshot. The comeback putt from down the hill is a bear.
7. 11-b, the one up the hill. No wind/no problem. Add the wind and it can be most hard to stick an upshot.
8. 2-a, this should be an easy 3, but most of us are not warmed up yet, and manage to yip either the drive or the upshot.
9. 7-a, This hole is all head-game. Not too long, decent window, but most bad drives turn in to 5's because of greedy choices.

10. 16-a, I ranked the ones in the middle by how often I get a bogey. They alll seem rather even in that regard.
11. 13-a,
12. 6-a,
13. 3-a,
14. 14-a,
15. 16-a,

16. 15-a, Fun, but predictable 3
17. 10-a, hard to get a 4. Birds are most do-able.
18. 1-a, This hole was designed to be a gift. Accept it and move on. Clean up your putt and take a 2.

I will dig up the original score predictor numbers from the design stage and post them next to the CCC and Ice Bowl numbers. Should be interesting to see how they hold up to our personal experiences.

I think we should quantify our ranking by not just white or red tees, but with our current pdga rating. I think mine is near 915, but haven't looked lately.

Ron

[becker]

Just like Ron to skip hole 8 and play #16 twice.

[bryan]

I don't know if the perspective of a new player is helpful or useful, but here goes. I've been playing about 6 months, and only drive about 200-225 feet or so. My best round from the red tees is a 62, which was a really good round for me - a couple of birdies and nothing over a 4 except hole 12.

From toughest to easiest:
1. #12 (long position). At 667', I've taken to calling this one the "neighbor of the beast". At my drive distance, I can't get my first shot where I'm clear to the basket, so my second shot really just gets me past the dogleg to the remaining fairway. I have to make four good shots to make 5 here.

2. #4 (long position). The second shot gives me trouble -- I can't seem to judge the distance correctly going uphill and seem to always be just at the edge of that window into the basket area.

3. #9 (long position). If I don't keep my drive on top of the ridge, I can't make this one in 3 -- I don't know how to keep any power when standing on the downslope to the right. It takes two good shots to have any chance at par for me.

4. #2. I'm not sure why this one gives me trouble, but it does. The woods loom on the left, where bad shots will surely go, and the sloping area around the basket can lead to rollers which are not automatic putts for me.

5. #1. My scoring averages put this hole next, but I'm guessing that its just because I don't warm up before I start playing. This should be in the easiest 1/3 of the course, I think, but my personal scores don't reflect this.

6. #11. I don't have a consistent enough left-to-right shot to make this one easy, so I end up with some discs in bad places from time to time. I've made birdie here, so its definately doable, but I play this hole very inconsistently.

7. #17. I like this hole, but it is rare for me to make a three here.

8. #15. If my drive is off here, I may not have a good path to get close to the basket.

9. #14. This is reachable for me, but the uneven ground around the basket sometimes results in a difficult putt. The frequent cross-wind here can make it difficult to reach this one in two.

10. #7 (longer position). The new location here is so short from the red tees that this should be moved down the list; however, for the long position, I don't really see what the correct path to the basket should be. Combined with the uphill stance for the tee shot, this is more difficult for me than the length would suggest.

11. #6. A few obstacles here can lead to some difficulty, but this is a pretty easy three for me.

12. #18. I generally make a three here.

13. #16. From the red tees, I really like this hole. Closest I've come to an ace at Crockett, but I generally take three.

14. #10 (long position). A hole that favors my RHBH.

15. #3. From the reds this is a pretty predictable three, but I don't make many birdies here.

16. #8. Short and downhill. Even if I clip a tree -- and I do -- I can still make par here.

17. #13. I don't like the elevated basket, but this is an easy three.

18. #5. Lots of birdie chances here for me from the red tees.

[bryan]

Here are the scoring averages for my last 11 rounds at Crockett (Jun 27-Aug 8, Red Tees):

Ranked by stroke count:
5 (2.9)
8 (2.9)
16 (3)
6 (3.1)
3 (3.2)
13 (3.2)
15 (3.2)
18 (3.2)
1 (3.5)
11 (3.5)
14 (3.5)
7 (3.6)
2 (3.7)
10 (3.8)
17 (3.8)
9 (4.1)
4 (4.5)
12 (6.2)

If ranked against posted par (Par 4 for holes 4 & 9, Par 5 for 12), hole 9 jumps from #16 to #5, hole 4 drops back to #13, and hole 12 is still the toughest. My average round through this period has been just under 65; +7 versus posted par or +11 against 54.