Adv, INT, or just plain AM

[RD]

So, maybe its because I've been on the line of playing in INT and ADV that I've thought of something.
I'm sure its been discussed many times before, and the oldtimers like Ron (uhh, I mean seasoned vets) can elaberate on the history.
In my mind, why is there two divisions for basically the same result? If you look back on just about anyones play you will find that where there place in one division is not far from where they would land in the other.
Granted when I first started playing tournaments, I wouldnt have wanted to compete against the top ADV player, which means I could just play REC till ready.
Not picking on Adam Drake here, but by example he won INT at the Music City Open, and would have been 2nd in ADV (yes, the same exact layout, just different days)
Personally, I finished 6th in ADV. Guess where I woulda finished in INT.....yup, 6th
So, my point is, I think there should be an Open division, played by those competing for cash. An AM division, played by those competing for plastic (striving for cash), and REC division for those getting there tourney legs & those that just like playing for "fun", this division plays for trophy only. And then of course you will have your age protected divisions and ladies as well.
Any way, just thought I would spark up some conversation about the way I see things, in that, for what its worth ADV and INT should be one in the same. As a bonus it would generate much larger fields....your typical C-tier that has 18 INT and 9 ADV...would now be a strong 27 player field, making deeper payouts and giving those that dont make the cut more incentive to get better.....

my .02

whos next..........

btw, im not being negative here at all....just an observation I've noticed ver the last year or so

[slowroll]

Int exists to give those under 935 an opportunity to cash. If you made one single pool of players as "AM", then the same 960+ rated guys would win all the prizes and all of us at 950 and below would have to play out of our minds to even cash. TN however, is a really poor example of the differences between the divisions. I'm going to use myself as an example, not because I'm some great player, but simply to illustrate a point I want to make. I am a low to mid-level Adv player anywhere else in the country but I won 3 of the 7 events I entered last year in TN. I was the only actual Adv rated player at the Burde Ridge tournament. I've cashed in every tournament I've entered, save 1 and am usually placing ahead and behind the same guys. Because of our relatively shallow pool of players we end up with 930 rated guys playing Pro, 900 rated guys playing Adv, and 850 rated guys playing Int.

This consistent playing up is a regional trend, and I believe that alot of it has solely to do with peer pressure and the personal pride of players in the South that think they are alot better than they really are. True top level Adv rated guys like Patrick Grizzard, Jake Goodman, and Tommy Slaton are called baggers if they play their rated division. They end up playing open before they are truly rated as open players. This vacancy of top players filters all the way down the ranks and unfortunately often leads to these not yet pros washing out and sometimes leaving the game. It is very tough to consistently finish bottom 1/3rd in a division and as barely 960 rated golfers expected to compete against 1000 rated golfers on a weekly basis that is usually where they finish.

This leaves Mid to low Adv players (like myself) to fill the vacancy left in Adv. Many Int guys then play up a division leaving Int watered down...and so on...and so on. This is a regional occurrence and you WILL NOT SEE THIS HAPPEN in most other places. You'd have to be a fool to play Adv in NC or OR unless you are within the ratings limit. I've rambled on for a while now, but I hope I’ve made my point.

Thankfully we have a huge appeal in this great game and new talented players are always coming onto the scene. Blair Bose, Joey Lutz, and Adam Drake are just a few players that are making big waves in their respective divisions and playing exceptional golf. We will always have new players move up through the ranks, play up, and succeed. The problem comes when a guy is playing in his own division and is called a bagger (poor Dana Lanahan is a 935 golfer playing Adv Masters and wins almost everything he enters locally. People really want the guy to play Pro...at a 935 rating?!? Crazy) because their isn't enough local competition to give him a run for his money.

Bottom line, if all the 970 and below players played in a pool together called AM. The chances of a 920 guy ever cashing would be very, very slim indeed considering they would be playing with players that on average shoot 5 strokes better than them on any course they step onto. Thanks for reading.

[Ron Pittman]

Craig,
Not a new discussion. Your description of the local scene is dead-on.

A bit of history. Ratings crept in 2001-2002. Prior to divisions being formed by ratings brackets --- divisions were based on a simple concept.---you could play in any division you wanted as long as overt sandbagging didn't create gun play.

Pre- ratings divisions were Open, AM I, AM II, and a beginner division. ( I don't remember the name.) Age protection for Masters (both pro and am) started at 35. By the way, Southern Nationals Tour still holds on to the am one and two nomenclature. And since they are often also anti-PDGA, they are not members and most players have no rating. Bagging is a constant issue. It won't be fixed soon.

I don't remember when we moved to the ratings divisions, but it wasn't immediate. While in Texas (2001-2004), the sandbagging in the am divisions was legendary. The beginner division (currently named Novice) had players with worn out champ level bags with quads and they could throw 400'. I got my butt kicked at the local stuff everytime I played. AM II (called am two) was just as bad.

During the next few years it seemed that the PDGA changed the names and numbers of divisions every year. Especially as ratings became more accepted.

After all divisions were determined by ratings -- the PDGA has tweaked the cutoff numbers several times. Our current set up is about 5 years old.

A bit about ratings. They are just numbers. For a point of reference -- think bowling average. You can establish an average (a rating) with just one day of playing. Of course, the more rated rounds you play -- the greater the chance your rating will predict your typical play.

So, new players can often deliver some goofy random scores. And thereby some goofy random ratings. But, a player who plays 4 or 5 tournaments a year usually cranks out more consistent play/ratings.

Now, just like in bowling; on any day, for any game(round) -- a player can easily play above or below his/her rating. No surprise. Even tennis players are bracketed by their play history (seeded) and often an un-seeded player will win. Sorry, but you don't get to call them a bagger.

Back to the local scene. Why in the snot do players "play up" a division on a big B tier -- I dunno. If they are improving FASTER than their ratings are climbing.. well... fine. Sometimes they think that their game is "on" and want to see how they fare.

At the MCO, only 8 adv players had a rating above 935.(true adv players) Four of the 8 finished 1.2.3.4. The other 4 had a bad day. 18, I said 18 of the 26 had ratings below 934. 10 of which had a rating BELOW 900 or was un-rated. In short, the adv division was not watered-down --- it was outright polluted. I got no idea why.

Typically a rating difference of 50 points results in about a 5 stroke difference per round. That is an average of 20 blinking strokes for a weekend. Duh. Just like rock beats scissors everytime -- math wins EVERYTIME.


And why did 4-5 of our local adv players (below 960) choose to play open? Dunno. Even playing above their rating resulted in them being bottom feeders in open. One would have placed first in adv and the others would have easily filled the top ten. Are they baggers if they play adv? Far, far from it. Why did they do it? For the experience, maybe. But, it then end -- math won.

I won't mention any names, but RD would have been 6th in both MA1 and MA2. Weird outcome. If the advanced field had been full of true advanced players -- not only do I think fewer of the lower rated players would have signed up -- I think they would have gone home with a much lower placement. Regionally, we have only a handful of true advanced players. I wish I were one of them, but alas, no.

Locally and recently , Adam Drake, Matt Love, RD, and Aaron have dominated the top INT spots. But, not to the point of moving their rating even close to the 934 cutoff. They are currently an INT player. Are they bagging. Heck fire no. Would I encourage them to play up. Probably so. Better them than the bunch of non-rated and under 900 rated folks who tried to play up this weekend.

By the way, I don't stress too much about goofy outcomes in rec division. It will always have slightly skewed result due to non-rated wanderers and the folks just flashing though on their way up.

I think that our small one day c tiers and this one goofy MCO are bad examples of which division to play in. Playing up is normal -- and even expected. But, for a big full B tier -- don't do it.

Also, we were missing a pile of our regular tournament players due to the Mothers day timing.

In short, I contend that ratings based divisions are one of the best things go happen to competitive play. Ratings breaks every 50 points (20 strokes for a weekend) has a nice history of working. When we had Am one and two and beginner division--- very few new players would even attempt tournament golf. I don't ever want to see us return to that.

This is a good time on our sports history. We are growing. Are we keeping pace in Nashville. I say no. We need more courses. We need more quality tournaments. Not quantity. Quality. Some are. Some are not.

As far as the MCO is concerned --- I have invested in it for a variety of reasons, but foremost because it can be the vehicle to push Nashville proper to more co-ordinated, classy, big dg events. I hope to be a part of training some young blood to push Nashville forward. As a dg mecca, we are outshined by little ol' Huntsville and Bowling Green. Shouldn't oughta be. Time to make a turn.

Ron out.

[slowroll]

I can see myself using "Math Wins!" in many scenarios from this day forward. Most will have absolutely nothing to do with if I'm winning the card or not.

[RD]

Awesome!! I knew you two would jump in here on this. Its seems we three are about the only folks who love to discuss this sorta stuff.

Good points had by all IMO.
the one response I have about Craigs point of saying INT gives those under 935 a chance to cash.
Well, I say if players were worried about cashing, they wouldn't currently play up. I do see your point that if there were one division some may never cash...or would they? eventually they would if there dedication to the game allowed them to grow.
but to Ron's points, it could detour folks from wanting to compete.

My other point is I think its the same ALL over....look at Greg Mcatee for example (wow, we are name dropping a lot, haha) he moved to MS, there are a lot of course there, I spoke with him a lot at CCCIII, hes a REC rated player, trying his hand a lot in INT around here........he plays OPEN, yes OPEN out there because the fields are so weak.
In Atlanta, where I play a ton of events.....I mirror what I do up here....placing 3rd in INT when I could be 5th or so in ADV.
I wont take the time to do it, but if you look at a random tourney result, say from St louis or Texas, I bet you would see similar results.

Great discussion, I wish we could have more like this, wait we could!!

And to Ron about Nashville becoming more of a hub for DG, it can and will some day....and I hope to be a part of that. My goal is to play well at Worlds next year in Charlotte, enjoy that experience, and then shift my focus to the TD side of things, and hoping to get more courses in the ground.....we can and we will Ron.

And btw, I do love the current rating system, Im not knocking it or wanting a change, I just see a lot of similar results in the INT/ADV divisions. And really, I think has a lot to do with the growth of the sport, and how fast players move up in ranks.
I'll drop one more name here, look how fast our long lost pal James (msudog) excelled from a begginer to an INT/ADV level player in what seemed like one summer

join in folks, without discussion we cant discuss.

[slowroll]

May 10, 2011 9:24:38 GMT -5 RD said:

the one response I have about Craigs point of saying INT gives those under 935 a chance to cash.
Well, I say if players were worried about cashing, they wouldn't currently play up. I do see your point that if there were one division some may never cash...or would they? eventually they would if there dedication to the game allowed them to grow.

The idea of playing up for the experience of it is oftentimes short lived. That is why so many players in the 950 range end up leaving the game. They want to see what it is like in Open, get there and understand what a huge gap there is between them and the 1000 guys(5 strokes a round) that are the games true elite(only 163 in the world currently). You are ready to play Adv because you are pouring alot of yourself into the game each week. You are playing regularly and playing well. If over time your average end up being a 920 golfer and are always in 5-10th in Adv but would be 1-5th in Int, would you move back down? The problem is that most guys see divisions as a one way street. Once the 950 guy moves up to Open, he views it as a failure to step back down to Adv. And at $50 a weekend, some guys just get priced out of the game. Loosing every weekend can be disheartening and feeling like you are just there to donate to the prize pool is even worse.

The point I'm making is that for the most part, playing up becomes a pride thing(which was my original point). It then becomes a game of only when you play out of your mind do you get rewarded (cashing). For most guys that gets old. I have a good friend that has decided that he is going to play Adv because he believes it is a better class of people to be around. I think that is a very odd decision because I have found that there are jerks and great people in every division. It really is the individual's decision to make and I wish that peer pressure wasn't a factor, but it is. There is no reason why you can't step up, or down, with your current rating and play Adv/Int locally as you choose. The problem comes when a player realizes that they "are what they are" but refuse to step down to where they should actually be slotted. They then either leave the game completely or become lifetime donators to a division they know they can’t win in.

Side note: There is a very good chance that in 2013 I will spend the entire year playing Open regardless of my rating because I plan to play Pro Masters in 2014 and beyond. I will get my experience knowing full well that I am in over my head, but I will do so willingly and with a purpose that extends beyond the short term. What I'm really saying is. Come on in the water's fine, and if you want some, come get some. The RD's and Adam Drakes of the world won't have this ole boy to kick around for too much longer.

[RD]

Very true,
It all boils down to where you feel comfortable. I myself like to better myself, and have fun no matter where I place.
And in the end, its up to the player to decide, over time your play will decide your rating and where your "suppose" to play.

look at poor me. I decided to move up to see how I do, and to stop getting beat by Drake, Love and the like, and look what happens, they are gonna move up with me....I can't win for losing!! haha....just kidding. I just love the game. I love to compete, thats why we do it!

[becker]

I find this discussion strangely encouraging. Not that there's much I'll do with it beyond chime in.

I played INT once, as in one tourney, when I'd been playing for about a year. The "bagger" cries resounded, I moved up to ADV and never looked back. For years, I said I'd play pro when I finally hit an ace. I did, and I did. Only two tourneys (an ice bowl and a weekly), and I was reminded how far I really am from a pro.

The disparity I see is when players who should be playing higher annihilate the REC division. After watching ten throws, we can all identify a REC player. If you're above that level, play INT.

I'm not quitting anytime soon, regardless of where they plug me in the occasional tourney. Craig, you can have the Pro Masters; I intend to play ADV Masters until they complain about bagging, then I'll bump up to ADV Grandmasters. Heh.

-- Becker

Admittedly, I rarely play in tourneys, preferring to sling it around without an entry fee.

[keith]

Awesome discussion here guys. Okay... I'll state my 2 cents worth.

Here I am, now entering my 3rd year of DG play. And... newly in my second season at tourney play (and very few tourneys at that). I have a current rating of 865.

Now... here I am in a situation where I could play REC or INT. Or.... (now that I turned 50 back in Feb. ), I can now play Adv. Grand Master. Which oddly enough, does not require any rating minimum in order to play. This past April, I played the Adv. Grand Master division at the BG AMs and was throughly whooped. But....... I had the time of my life hanging with some other old farts who: 1) Love the game of Disc Golf and 2) Had great competitive spirits without taking the event too seriously. During the round, we had great conversations about the game and about our lives (old people like to talk about life).

Now most of you all know me and you all know how much I love this game and how much I want to improve my game. I also love the atmosphere of tourney play and its competitive nature. Anyone who has a true competitive spirit, wants to have a chance to compete with others and with themselves so we can hopefully see improvement in the game we enjoy playing. And who knows.... maybe even walk away with a Win or a Top 3 finish in a major event someday. Which if you think about it, how many folks are really going to remember that event (other than the one who won).

So for me.... I like seeing various divisions that allow me to participate at a level that matches me up with others of similar abilities; we all know this is not totally possible since this is not a perfect system. We all have to remember that DG is a very, very new sport! As this sport grows (both as a recreation and competitive sport), the "Competition Logistics" will hopefully become more refined. We all hope that an organization like the PDGA will help make this possible. In the meantime, I'm just gonna keep on throwing and learning.

Blessings,

Keith

[RD]

Ok, so I just took the time....picked 4 B-tiers at random from this month.

12th annual Pecan Park Open......in TX
1st Pl ADV (933rated) total 208
1st pl INT (902rated) total 214 woulda finished 4th in ADV

Aloha Sushi Classic..........in WA
1st pl ADV (935rated) total 148
1st pl INT (915rated) total 160 woulda finished 4th in ADV

Eagle Scout Open......in IN
1st pl ADV (959rated) total 122
1st pl INT (920rated) total 142 woulda finished 7th in ADV

Chain Reaction.......in MI
1st pl ADV (945rated) total 143
1st pl INT (904rated) total 144 woulda finished 2nd in ADV

I truly picked these at random to look at....and was a little shocked actually that I saw this. I think it validates my point that its not so much about ratings dictating "what" division you should play in as much as it shows how SIMILAR the fields really are. I again think this has more to do with where the sport is right now......the 900-950 rated golfer is just about one in the same, because there are so many up and coming golfers merging through this level of play I still think ONE BIG field would be neat.
Im enjoying the big events, the full fields, and if a few golfers get lost along the way or get "washed" away because they can't compete doesnt mean they won't play anymore, they just might not be at tourneys. If all these folks want to do is win something, they are playing for the wrong reasons anyway IMO.
get out there and enjoy the outdoors!! play hard, win some, lose some.